Transcript:
Nyquist: All right. I’m Jeff Nyquist and this is Friends and Enemies. And I’m here with my German co-host, Alex Benesch. I’m Jeff Nyquist. And today we’re going to be talking about the occult, UFOs and the role in espionage and the Cold War and the ongoing war that’s for control of the human destiny. How’s it going, Alex?
Benesch: I’m fine. I’m fine. How are you?
Nyquist: I’m doing okay. I thought we might start by just explaining kind of what The occult. How the occult works. I saw your. You had done a video on the occult and espionage, and you were explaining there how occult groups are ideal for infiltrating, ideal for getting people to come clean with some information and to recruit people as agents. Maybe you could kind of explain how that works, how the occult world, the world of occult lodges and secret societies, how that helps major industrial espionage in its activities?
Benesch: Well, I mean, it’s it’s basically impossible to tell what came first. The the intelligence business or occultism. And if you look at the ancient world and ancient sources, there’s really no telling what came first. But it always seemed to seem to be connected one way, one way or the other. I mean, obviously you had quite a bit of cold activity in the ancient world, and sometimes people get confused when the term mystery cold is used. So just so everybody knows that in in, let’s say, ancient Rome or in ancient Greece, there was a great variety of religious systems and cults. Some were more exclusive than others. And some are even very, very much restricted. So, for example, there is the there once was this Mithras called in the Roman Empire, and this thing was so secret that nothing survived publicly that would tell us what was going on in these cult meetings that were held in very secluded places, very small little temples, sometimes in caves, sometimes in people’s basements, very well hidden. And we just do not know what they were doing there, because the secrecy was apparently total or anything that might have leaked was subsequently tracked down. There is some literature that indicates people were very concerned in Roman times about some of these codes and they were complaining about it. And then you never heard from these these critics ever again. And so this is kind of the distinction. Not everything that was that was, let’s say, a mystery called ancient times. Not everything was psychopathic and criminal and all that, but you can imagine what happens if very powerful people come together and and they very dangerous ideas about how the universe works. And this, of course, then ties into the intelligence business. And so when when we move further to the present, you also have to make, I think, these distinctions between, let’s say, some sort of an elite mystery cold from the ancient times that actually survived into into our time. Something is very, very elite and very, very secret. And then you have sort of the mid-level occultism, let’s say the last two Crowley types and various various groups of that nature. And it’s in even with that mid-level occultism, it’s tough to actually track criminal activity, crazy activity, very dangerous activity. And and then, of course, you have the the lowest level, I think, of a cultism, which is just the dabbling, branching out into various schools of esoteric, esoteric type systems. And I think this is sort of the baseline structure that people should be aware of because sometimes dabblers or people who just do this in their spare time, some people, they’re trying to get offended or they think that it’s just not understood what they’re doing. But what I’ve saw, what I’ve seen is these academics, for example, academics, they try to be scientific. They go through the source material. And oftentimes source material is what these occultists have written themselves. So the writings of the. Crowley, the writings of Helena Blavatsky from Russia. And so on. And you don’t imagine these people to write something incriminating on paper. Sometimes they did. But if you just try to be very scientific and academic going from these these original writings, you probably won’t get to the bottom of this. I think once you start looking at this like an intelligence officer would look at this. So you’re expecting secret, nefarious networks to exist and you’re trying to track them down. I think this is a much better approach.
Nyquist: I might want to make a comment about to show how occult ideas or religious slash occult ideas affect politics going all the way back. There is a kind of a common thread. If you go back to Alexander the Great, Alexander the Great’s mother told him that he might be half God, and that is his mother had this story about how the night that he was conceived this, this godlike spirit, you know, came to her. So he ended up as he was, you know, he’s 18 years old when his father died, Philip of Macedon, and he became the king. And when he had had conquered Egypt, he had conquered the that part of the Persian Empire. He went out to sea a a famous I guess you could call it a psychic. In those days they would be in Oracle. I think it was in some oasis in the desert west of the Nile. And I think you’ll find this in Plutarch. And he had he admitted to his friends, I think one of whom was one of his generals, this story that he’s really partly divine right. And his friends were shocked that Alexander had this belief about himself. And of course, this belief was turned out to be quite toxic in the biography of Alexander the Great, He ended up dying young, probably. You know, one rumor was he was poisoned by Aristotle because he had murdered Aristotle’s nephew. And he had he had turned against a lot of his friends who, you know, knew him as a human being, not as a as this divine. And so then you have this very strange event, this extremely ambitious man, Julius Caesar, who later is an extreme fanatic admirer of Alexander the Great, who when he comes to Egypt and teams up with Cleopatra, who is a goddess, you know, it ices in the flesh, so to speak, in Egypt. You know, Cleopatra, the descendant of one of Alexander the Great’s generals, of course, Alexander the Great’s tomb was there. And Alexander Aria. And they could go and they could look at Alexander. And of course, looking at Alexander’s grave, you know, Caesar’s very moved here. His mistress is a goddess. Why can’t it be a god? And of course, you end up with the deification of the Roman emperors, the deification of Julius Caesar after his death. And you have this cult of personality. You had Hitler in the Third Reich, and you had this cult of personality with Stalin and Mao. This this almost deification of the great leader is a real factor in politics. And and it has this these mystical, semi-rural edges or occult roots, which is one example of a belief that, you know, shows allegiance to a particular leader, to a particular party and has significance so that later you have when the Roman Empire tells the Jews you have to, you know, have an altar to the emperor, you have to swear allegiance to the emperor. And so you have this Jewish revolt, right, where the zealots come out and they’re going, we are we only worship God. We’re not going to worship Caesar. Right? And then so Rome sent its troops, right? And so you have the famous revolt at 68 A.D. and the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. So you have this this history of wars over these beliefs. So this this is not something minor because the Jewish wars, the two big ones in the Roman history were extremely important. And they they play big. Now when Israel is reestablished in its old territory that, you know, 2000 years later and you’ve got these kind of wars and you’ve got a lot of people today. I mean, I had when I put up our I link to the video last week and they they said, you know, was Alex a clairvoyant talking about Hamas when when that had happened last Saturday it began happening but but it it it it we see that this this Middle East thing is so volatile religiously because I had all kinds of people comment on my site, quoting Bible scriptures, arguing about who had the right translation of the Bible for, you know, quoting Ezekiel 3839 and talking about Bible prophecy in relation to the events that were unfolding in the Middle East. And of course, this is very similar to all kinds of prophecies in the use of not just religious beliefs, but magical belief in general, in influencing groups.
Benesch: I mean, it’s notable, especially in in the ancient the ancient world, when, let’s say, one empire expanded and an empire was conquering new territory, so it had a new province or it just outright claimed claim a certain bit of land. It was not necessarily not necessarily standard procedure to just tell these new these new people that you conquered, to tell them that your entire religious system is bogus and you have to adopt our system. So what happened quite often was that the conquering the conquering nation, the conquering empire, was combining its religion with the religion of the acquired territories. And that’s how you saw kind of these stories change. If you look into the ancient mystery cults, there’s almost 20 variations of every single story. There’s 20 variations of every single, every single character in that story. So these stories were constantly adopted and changed. Now, the basic baseline procedure of these calls, the baseline was always kind of the same. But you could you could tell pretty much that when, let’s say, the Babylonian empire was expanding, it was suddenly changing these religious stories of the acquired territories, and they were just expanding the role of one of the Babylonian gods and create these family relations of certain certain God figures.
Nyquist: And if we apply that logic, call it a kind of that’s a kind of ecumenism where you’re attempting to to merge. It’s like the Greeks in the Romans. The Romans, when they were taking over the Mediterranean, they began to associate their gods with Greek gods. So they would say that, oh, Jupiter is zealous. And, you know, Venus is I’m not thinking of their name, the goddess of war there in Greece. Athena. So, yeah, So, you know, Jupiter is Zeus, Venus is Athena, Mercury is Hermes. You know, this kind of correspondence. So that they were trying to make it into one thing. But what ended up happening a lot of the times, as you mentioned, all these cults, is it you know, there’s like I think there’s 44,000 different types of Protestantism. There’s basically just five types, but there’s 44,000 different denominations somebody figured out. And the thing is, is that would you ended up in the ancient world as you had these cults just multiplying like crazy. So you had this chaos of gods that had taken place in the late Roman Empire, and you had at the same time, the political authorities wanted to consolidate belief so that people would then they could center the the that that belief in as attending to the legitimate see of the political power.
Benesch: And this is something I noticed I noticed recently this was kind of a small family vacation. So we were in Austria and we looked at this exhibition. These things actually exist over here. They’re called torture museums. Okay, So to museums, you never heard of torture museums in the United States? So basically, you’re visiting one of the castles, right. Like a very, very old castle. And they have this it’s it’s like a halfway converted into museums. So they they tell you about, for example, the history of torture and how it compares to today. So they would have all these exhibits there.
Nyquist: The thing where you’d be stretched out on, on all kinds of stuff, thumb screws and all the crazy stuff from all the centuries.
Benesch: And then they have, of course, information about how this relates to the world today. So they actually quote things on these information boards. They quote stuff from what the Russians are doing, what’s going on in the Muslim world, what’s going on, and, you know, everywhere. So so you visit this museum. And and you look at these exhibits and I mean, to me, it was it was kind of striking because in the ancient world, everybody picked their own favorite cult. And they were doing all these rituals and some of these rituals were not just meant to just beg some benevolent gods to to help you or to to help your children when they’re ill. But sometimes for the general public, this these rituals meant that you were also trying to get the help of a demon. There’s this one instance I think is from the Roman Empire, where if your child was sick, you were supposed to do this complicated ritual with a pig. You had to dress up the pig in some sort of way. And the pig had to move in a certain way. And the pig was the the pig had a little figurine and its in its mouth, had to carry it around and then you had to do something else with the figurine. And when it was all said and done you place the little figure, the little idol, you place it next to your child who was sick in bed. And this is supposed to get the help of an actual demon. So it’s not a benevolent entity, it’s a demon. But if you do the right magic, you can sort of benefit from the demons power for a good cause. So this was even common with the average the average folk. And so most, you know, just going further down the line in in Christian times in Europe, this sort of magic or ancient magic, this was, of course, completely illegal. If you were caught performing that sort of magic, the the government would come after you, the church would come after you, and they would employ these torture devices to gain more information. Now, if you look at just baseline historical historical records and baseline historical analysis, they will tell you this was all just misguided and just stupid. But to me, it seemed more like on a certain level it was counterintelligence because we seen so many occult activities leading up to our revolution, for example, the communist revolution leading up to the Nazi, the Nazi takeover, the right wing in Europe and especially in Germany was was very much into the occult. And so I think that in European history, let’s say the witch burnings and these investigations and parts of the Inquisition, I think that was also somewhat rooted in counterintelligence because the governments at the time, they were just concerned that revolutionary networks, they were concerned that that these revolutionary networks existed and they were combining occultism and espionage. And so if you if the government actually heard about some some suspicious activity, they would they would go in, investigate using every means available. And they were questioning these people. So these torture devices or these torture devices were not just there to elicit a confession. I mean, that did happen quite a bit for intimidation, but it was also a way to extract information. Are you part of a what about a deeper about a deeper network? Are you in a cult? Are you a professional cultist? Do you have a network? Do you have contact people? Are you running any sorts of operations? So I think that was also part of this.
Nyquist: Well, I will, of course, you know that the Inquisition was started on account of a of a very carefully organized conspiracy slash heresy. The opposition crusade was was when the the Inquisition first started. And it was the the Cathar Heresy was that the God of the Bible was it was a sort of demon, a demiurge or tim your ghost. And so this demon that created the world, it created a prison in which where all of our souls are trapped. So their theology was very much opposed to Christianity, although they were infiltrating the church. There were bishops, there were there were cardinals, there were very high level people belonging to this sect that had infiltrated all over Christendom. They were particularly strong in the south of France. And so they had to they had to try to stamp it out because it was like it was like a disease. And of course, it is it is a Gnostic related heresy. It is Gnosticism in a very virulent form. And it wasn’t only, for example, Eric Berglund, who pointed out that Gnosticism was the main counter current to to Christianity, but and to to civilization itself. Going back to ancient, there’s more than one form of Nazism. There’s there’s Jewish Gnosticism, there’s Christian Gnosticism, there’s Pagan Gnosticism. And of course, you, you it is so it’s inimical. The beliefs of the system are inimical to any I guess you could say, civilization or structure friendly notions. It’s it’s somewhat communistic in its belief systems and and has these Manichean elements good versus evil where what everybody else thinks is good is actually evil. So there’s an inversion of good and evil that takes place in this in this cult. And it was Carl Jung in his book and who associated this heresy, this opportunity in heresy with modern communism, saying that communism was modern Marxism-Leninism was the ultimate form of the same heresy just brought up to date with modern science and so on. And you could you could make the claim, you know, Berglund claimed that Nazism, not national socialism, was really part of the same general movement. Have you heard some of this before?
Benesch: It rings a bell. Definitely, because I’ve I’ve looked at the the common roots of National National Socialism and socialism. And it’s I mean, when when, for example, the the Knights, the Knights Templar were taken down, this was a very important event in history, of course. And and so these arrests were made. Of course, many Templars escaped, but those that were arrested were tortured. And then you had these proceedings and historians have looked at these records. Now, obviously, if you just look at the records, it seems kind of it all rings very phony. And this has been interpreted as a baseline power struggle between the French king, the pope, and the the order of the Templars. But if you look if you look deeper, I think this is a much bigger picture that emerges because it’s when you have these these people taken as as prisoners and you have the option of torturing them, what questions would you ask them? You would ask questions like what? Where are your hidden assets? Where are your spies? What operations are you running? What are your long term plans and strategies? So you would ask all these kinds of intelligence questions to figure out what kind of a network the Templars had built and you would ask them about occult activity and how far this runs and any secret backers and secret support structures. Those are the questions you would ask. But if you just look at the files that were that are public, the files don’t tell you that much. On the surface the accusations were homosexuality and the accusations were about spitting on the cross. And and that was almost in every single case was the same were the same charges. But of course, if you if the if they indeed asked real questions back then, you know, real intelligence questions back then, you wouldn’t put all this into the official files. So you would run a double system, you would ask the real questions and write down the answers, and then you would have sort of the official documents, the official files, and you just make up some charges and then and file it as as such. But I think that there was quite a bit of a cultism going on. And this is what the interrogators, I think, were after. And some people wrote books later on about the subjects. And I found one of these books in my old university. I think this was even an original print. And so this person who was attached to the Knights Templar is he admitted to certain things. He said, Well, yes, the were the church investigation. They actually did find secret hidden rooms in the homes of Templars. And these secret rooms were containing certain talismans and such. And also some graves were opened. And again, these weird talisman type objects were found in those graves that did not belong there. So he was admitting to this, but he was downplaying it in the bogus by saying this was all just a big misunderstanding. But I think what we’re what we can witness, you know, if we dig a little deeper, it was a massive counterintelligence operation.
Nyquist: So do you think that people would admit to things that were true just to get out from under the torture?
Benesch: Obviously, Obviously, that’s that’s kind of what’s what can happen. And if, of course, you want to elicit force that can force a confession, you will get a confession, most likely. But I if we look at these people back then as professionals, I think they were going after specific types of information. Now, I don’t think that I don’t think that most Templars were Templars were in on it, but I think they were looking for they were looking for specific networks within the Templars.
Nyquist: Yeah, well, certainly the Cathars were a real world, real thing and they were a real threat. They were huge. And of course there’s a relation, their connection there to Bulgaria. There’s a connection there to ancient Persia and of course there’s a connection if Carl Jung and Erik Berglund are right. You know, Jung had a very funny way of explaining this. He said The Antichrist is a real force in history. And he said, We are living at the time of this Antichrist. And he said that the Antichrist movement is the opposite, is what is any Christ is someone who promises the same thing as Christ, that the lion will lay down with the lamb, but he delivers the exact opposite, and that this is what you have with National Socialism and with communism. And he he traced these movements. He called them part of this Antichrist movement through history, which he he punctuates with the the origins in movement and and shows how it is in the Renaissance. You have this occult revival. You have the introduction of metaphysics and the Enlightenment reaction to the wars of religion. And then of course, you have the the cult revival in the latter 19th century in Europe. And then you, of course, you have the Nazi, a communist movement in the 20th century. And Jung was connecting these things as part of a rising madness in Western society. He was basically saying this is this is one of the things that I realized when I was doing my book Origins, that the Fourth World War was that, you know, people say, oh, you’re just all about glitz and you’re all about just the Russians did this fake. Well, that that’s one important data point about the Russians having this plan to fake the collapse of communism, that that deception was so big with the Russians. But the bigger thing was, is that Marx’s ideology and more specifically Lenin, there is a psychology of destruction ism in Marx and Lenin, so destruction of the truth at every opportunity. It’s like, why did they lie about that? They even lie when it doesn’t seem to matter because the truth is the enemy. And then you have weapons of mass destruction. And whenever they do their war thing, and even when they’re at peace, you know, communism killed 100 million people by some counts in the 20th century, in China, in Russia, in Cambodia, in Africa. This is a this is a tremendous death toll in peacetime, let alone in wartime. So you look at you look at Ukraine, it’s almost senseless. The Ukrainians will will will bomb a Russian supply depot where they’ve got Howitzer shells stored and the Russians will will counterattack by firing missiles at a gas station, a supermarket or an apartment block. Right. So they’re they’re using terror. They’re killing civilians. You saw with Hamas, they’re killing civilians. It’s about destruction, murder. I mean, the Israelis actually, when somebody challenged them on these babies heads being chopped off, they then published the pictures. I mean, this is it’s just it’s it’s mind boggling, right? The evil. But so what I realized was that this countermovement against like normal cosmological thinking, you know, a loving God made us put us here. We’ve got this structured civilization and we’ve got these rules to live by. But they’re against all of it. They’re against God, they’re civilization, they’re against society. They want to, you know, the help agency insists, like, destroy the world, destroy mankind. We got to escape from the world. We got to leave it all behind. It’s all evil, you know, everything that we know as good they say is evil. And so then you get to Karl Marx and Lenin, and it’s it’s just a different way of saying it. When you go to Marx, you know, you go to Hegel’s dialectic, it’s it’s abstraction, negation. And and then you have the synthesis, the new abstraction or the new reality. With Marx, he makes it. He turns it on its head, you know, as materialism. I mean, if, if idealism is the true philosophy behind all true religion, behind all true philosophy, and now they’re saying in physics it’s true, then materialism is the ultimate lie. So Marx says, no, it’s not. Idea that you start with an abstraction, you start with the concrete in reality, and you negate, you criticize critic size, criticize reality, you critique reality. And then that leads to the revolution, to the destruction of reality. So you make a new reality and you can be the God, the destroyer God who creates by this drawing. And this is when you realize this is what’s going on. You look at, you know, weapons of mass destruction and weapons of mass deception. You go, Holy crap, this is bad.
Benesch: I noticed this interesting trend. So before the Communist revolution, the the socialist movement, the socialist movement was full of cultism. And some of these more well-known communists, they were even more open about it. They were writing about it. I think Mikhail Bakunin and some of these guys, they were pretty dark. And so you saw all this occultism going on. Then the revolution is achieved. And once this happened and the new communist government had solidified, they actually made it illegal for the average citizen in Russia, especially in Soviet Russia. They made it illegal for the average citizen to have these occultist groups to create new groups or to join a group and to have this sort of activity. So it’s interesting to see how occultism is being used and you have the religion, but then it becomes legal for most because the new government does not want the new government does not want resistance. They want to prevent somebody else using occultism against this new order. And so kind of this is a cultism survive sort of in the KGB. So there’s quite a bunch of interesting, quite interesting anecdotes about people inside the KGB who were quite into the occult, and you have the Lenin mausoleum and all that stuff. But for the average citizen, it was for a long time was pretty much forbidden to engage in a cult activity. And this changed in 19 1991, and then it became such a big thing in Russia. And now it seems to have gotten out of control somewhat. And we’re getting information out of Russia. They are trying to ban certain groups and make certain groups illegal. They can make anything illegal overnight because it’s such a big phenomenon in Russia. And there were some government and and orthodox officials in Russia fairly recently, and they made this claim that the United States and Ukraine were using occultism or what they call Satanism against Russia to conduct acts of sabotage and whatnot. So basically, everybody who was is fighting the Russian government now, according to Russia, is a Satanist. Of course, that’s what they’re claiming. But it’s interesting to see that this phenomenon was was out of control in Russia. And now they’re trying to put this all put the genie back in the bottle in some way.
Nyquist: And this is also something I noticed in a real witch hunt. Right. If you really want to find find the real witches or find the enemy, you have a witch hunt. Your enemies going to be found somewhere in there, right? Yeah. Make everybody paranoid. And then if everybody’s paranoid, who can get away with anything, Right?
Benesch: Exactly. And that is something I also noticed about the National Socialists, the right wing, the right wing circles in Germany and Austria as early as the 1800s. So things really started around 1850. Occultism became such a big thing. And and and once the Nazis actually took power, there was this order that a cultist groups are now cult groups for everybody are now illegal so the the only organizations you can join are national socialist organizations. And if you were a more powerful Nazi party member, you could get sort of a special permission to engage in occultism. But this was limited to a specific group. But the average citizen was no longer allowed to to dabble in occultism.
Nyquist: In ancient Rome Tiberius was a major consultant of astrologers and yet he would outlaw they would outlaw astrology, they would outlaw occult practices in Rome, and yet Tiberius would invite astrologers to his place by the coast. And he where he had he would take them to the roof of his house, which was on the edge of a cliff, and would bring them there. And even at this enormous bodyguard nearby who was given orders to throw the astrologer off the roof, if he gave the wrong answer, and of course, he would have the astrologer cast his own look at his own horoscope. And if he if the astrologer didn’t see that he was at a crisis point in his life and may be about to die, he would have been thrown off the roof. But they would it was like the leaders wanted access to a in secret information, but they didn’t want the public to have it. And they also realized that if an astrologer predicted that the emperor was going to die, it was a serious problem for the emperor because it might make that prophecy might be self-fulfilling. Right? So, yeah, that’s that’s it’s restricted sometimes it’s very restricted and sometimes it’s used to make people angry and it’s used to get people moving.
Benesch: And when of course, when this pattern becomes sort of a right, you know, using using cold groups for espionage purposes and for revolutionary purposes, if this is a non principle, of course, what happens, intelligence networks, they try to get in on the game and sometimes intelligence operatives, they will even start these kind of groups. And I think this is what happened, what happened with the Golden Dawn and the OTO, for example. So like this this group, the the Aldo Templar, the Enters Otto was created somewhere in Germany or Austria between 1918 95 and 1906. And it looks like these groups were made for espionage purposes. So you create this organization and then you expand its its activities, you expand what kind of cult systems are into. So there’s something for everybody. And then what these organizations did was they created these new law, just these new chapters, and then they tried to jump across the border and move into into the the territory of the competing empires. And then you make connections and maybe you can recruit sources and on and all that stuff. So there was this text from Dr. Richard B Spence from the University of Idaho. He looked at Aleister Crowley and apparently Crowley was a British spy who infiltrated the Golden Dawn and also the NATO. And so this was about figuring out these subversive plans, because some of these some of these networks, they try to destabilize Britain, reinstall the Stuart line to the throne and make Britain Catholic again. So and for that purpose, there were operations going on in Ireland. And and this was always tied to these so called organizations. And what else to Crowley did was he would infiltrate these groups, he would gain information, and then he would relay this this information to British intelligence. So this is something that I think people should be really, really aware of how this game was played in Europe at that at that time. At that point in time, there was also some German operations against the United States. And so this was before World War One. I mean, some people may be familiar with this. There was quite a bit of sabotage going on. German agents, German assets were trying to blow up anything they could in the United States, ammunition depots, ammunition factories, anything of of any value was was attacked and this was German intelligence behind this behind the sabotage. And this is also something that Mr. Crowley had infiltrated and and somebody who was tasked with investigating that sabotage was the infamous John J. McCloy, a very mysterious figure who then became after World War Two, he became sort of the man in charge of the occupied territories of Germany. And he did all kinds of stuff. He was scaling up the United States military and so on and so forth. So, yeah, this is this is actual intelligence operations. In this case, it was sabotage against the Americans and against Britain, operations against Britain.
Nyquist: And Aleister Crowley, he infiltrated these networks going through these codes. These are called connections. So it’s very, very interesting. And it is. And it is it is true, of course, that Crowley kind of invented his own religion and was and and seemed very serious about using occult ideas, which involve just to explain to the audience, a lot of occult ideas involve systems of correspondence and and it’s almost like a schizophrenic use of metaphor to try to invoke supernatural entities or powers or synchronicities or to cause things to happen. We should just sort of lay that out there, that, that whatever form of magic or occultism you’re looking at, there’s always a system of correspondences like we were. I was talking about pagan gods, for example, Pagan gods being related to different planets, right? You had the planet Venus, you had the planet Mars, you had the planet Saturn. These are names of gods. The sun, Apollo, is it God is the sun God. So you have these correspondences and all of these also relate to astrological symbols and the zodiac and so on and so forth, so that everything has a correspondence to everything else. And you have systems of symbols that are used, and then the manipulation of those symbols can supposedly change reality, change things. In reality, that’s just to to give a basic explanation. And of course, this was this was part of what they try to do in these magical rituals. But it also is very funny that there is a political side to this, that that also guess what symbols are very important to empires. They’re very important to military organizations, and that the manipulation of the symbol look at the symbols that Hitler created, the swastika which had already existed as a symbol, but he had it turned in a funny way. And you have of course, it’s a red flag, just like the Soviet flag is a red flag. He’s got a mustache. Like Stalin has a mustache. I think it was Viktor Suvorov that pointed out these correspondences that that so Hitler’s niece, who he supposedly had some kind of romantic infatuation with, was killed with with his revolver. She supposedly shot himself. Stalin supposedly shot herself with his revolver and so on. There’s this system of correspondences. I guess somebody made something of the fact that Hitler’s father at one time was a shoemaker, like Stalin’s father was at one time a shoemaker, so on, and both of their fathers beat them, etc.. So you have these weird attempts at correspondences and people find these correspondences to be very spooky. Like I think I mentioned the correspondence between the deaths, President Kennedy and President Lincoln here in the U.S. These correspondences shockingly exist. And what are we to make of that?
Benesch: Yeah, and so if we put ourselves mentally in the position of if we look back at the Cold War, so would, for example, how would the Soviets tried to infiltrate Western Europe and especially the United States by using a cold tourism, by using cold groups now in America, this in America, a cult tourism got a big boost in the 1960s. So with all the the new music and the rebellious, the rebellious symbology and all that, and then this Church of Satan was founded, which partially was a publicity, but it was also meant to get people into this further, to make it through, to create this entry point. It’s almost like a front organization for something, for something larger and something bigger. And I when, when so when the Church of Satan was founded, police then over the years, police noticed an increase in occultist crime and occultist activity. So it definitely had some sort of an effect. And when people get into this so they may start with, let’s say, the Church of Satan or they buy this this book by Anton LaVey the The Satanic Bible. This may be somebody’s entry point because at some point they have exhausted everything that’s that’s in the Satanic Bible. And they want to look further. They want more light, so to say, or more enlightenment in a cold sense. And so then they might start looking at what else is out there. And one thing I noted about the Church of Satan is something I had not been previously aware of and and it’s and it’s this. So when the Church of Satan was founded, one particular founding member called my attention and this was the Danish Baroness Coggin the lesson. So she grew up in the Royal Palace of Denmark. She was born in Copenhagen, Denmark, very old family, about 1000 years old. They started out in Saxony. Then they moved to they moved to Mecklenburg in Germany, northern Germany and then Denmark, which is a bit further to the north, Denmark and Holstein and their original place. The original place they controlled the original place then was was under the rule of the house of Hesse and Castle. So you’re talking about some of the most influential old families in these families at some point defined the British throne and also the Russian czarist throne. So here we have somebody from a very, very old family, more like more than a thousand years old, somebody attached to the throne of Denmark. And it’s it’s likely that this person had access to more elite circles, let’s say maybe ancient mystery, cold type stuff. And so she looks to me like a possible link between, a an actual elite and then sort of a lower level front organization such as the Church of Satan. So the Church of Satan was not giving away any any any secrets of the old mystery cults.
Nyquist: So she joined the Church of Satan.
Benesch: She was a founding member. Yeah, a Danish baroness, a Danish Baroness. She was a founding member.
Nyquist: When I was listening to your piece on it and I read a little bit about LaVey, his actual statements are very gnostic. Mm hmm. It’s a very Gnostic sect, just as one of my readers connected this to Islam. And I never heard this before that Islam is officially a Gnostic religion because they believe that the Creator, God of the Old Testament, Yahweh, is a demon or like a demiurg. So it’s like I had not run across it in all my readings on Islam. I had not seen that before. So you have there almost is like this line and. Vigeland You know. Perople have attacked me for it, you know, everything’s about gnosticism with you. And he said, look, if I had, you know, and he pointed to these authorities that he was referring to. These other people discovered all this stuff about gnosticism. I’m just connecting it to all these political movements. And, and, and he makes a very good point that there is this struggle and it is Manichean because Manichean kind of division of good and evil runs through all of these belief systems. So you’ve got Anton Levey in the Church of Satan making it about the devil being a good guy, right? Satan is actually misunderstood, according to Anton Levey And of course this this brings this brings up something that’s that you mentioned about the occult revival in America. If you go to American bookstores, the occult books are in the metaphysical. Often they call it metaphysical section where the UFO books are. And I should point out, well, how would the Russians, how would the Soviets be interested in exploiting these kind of things, especially after World War Two? And then you have right after World War to 1947, this flying saucer hysteria that begins with Kenneth Arnold sighting UFOs over Washington state from his airplane to the Roswell crash, you know, two weeks later. And in the what is it, the the the Fulton Ranch in Lincoln County, New Mexico. And and and there’s this book by Nick Redfern called Flying Saucers from the Kremlin. And he’s done amazing research. He kind of gives an offhand he tries not to sound like a McCarthyism and he goes, he goes back, pedals backwards to try to explain why there was concerns about the communists. But he’s got he’s he’s looked into the declassified files and he’s found that after these this first two weeks of incidents of flying saucers being seen everywhere, an FBI special agent named Reynolds went in, interviewed Army Air Corps intelligence chief General Shulgin. And Shulgin told Reynolds that the first flying saucer reports that kind of triggered the whole thing off had communal were people with communist connections and that the military was extremely concerned that Soviet agents were had been instructed to spread these rumors in order to exploit them, in order to create certain thoughts in people’s heads and even to form organizations like you say, cult organizations. And sure enough, when you get into the contact, is that the the people who a few years later claimed that they were talking to aliens, that flying saucers, it landed like George Adams. Again, you find connections to the KGB and to mysterious figures who ended up on the one hand, they’re interested in UFOs, but they ended up spying for the Soviet government and some of the some of them ended up disappearing mysteriously kidnaped, you know, supposedly in to meet flying saucer aliens, but probably kidnaped by the KGB because maybe they knew too much, which is is is all in Nick Redford’s first book and and there’s more is about Roswell in any Jacobsen which I’ve mentioned before about Stalin being Annie Jacobsen’s interview with an old scientist. American scientists saying Roswell was done by Stalin.
Benesch: Well, I mean, the United States Air Force was very concerned about the UFO activist movement for obvious reasons, because these activists, they would camp out near these military facilities, especially in the desert where the Air Force was testing experimental aircraft and the first stealth plane and all this stuff. And they were also working on other things, new ways of radio communications and all that sort of stuff. And so these UFO activists, they became quite inventive. So they would not just carry around cameras everywhere. Some of them would actually hop into a small airplane and fly around in the hopes of finding a wrecked crashed airplane. And so there’s there’s a book out. It’s called Mirage Men. And I think it was this was even turned into a documentary. And so this kind of tells you part of that, that whole history. And and this one guy, I think it was Benowitz, he he was he was becoming obsessed with this UFO and he was flying around in a plane and he was photographing something that could have been an experimental aircraft. And so the Air Force then decided to sue to work him. They kind of made him believe he was on the right track and it was useful as an aliens and he ended up insane. He had a mental breakdown of some sort and something else that the Air Force was doing, especially the what they call AFOSI, a special branch of the Air Force. They would spread false documents, give them to these UFO activists, and in exchange, they would demand actual intel from these UFO activist circles. So this is kind of this this thing, what you just mentioned. You make up phony intelligence, you make up phony stuff, and then you traded for something real. And so some of these UFO activists, they became quite famous. They had these bestselling books and they were putting information in this in these books that was supposedly secret. They had the special documents. They were becoming famous for it. But in exchange, they had to give the Air Force actual intelligence what was going on in the UFO movement, who had new information, who had new photographs, who may have a source in government telling them something.
Nyquist: And so this became this this wild cat and mouse game in UFO circles. And and it’s it’s that was basically the motivation of the Air Force because they were afraid that the Russians would actually infiltrate these UFO guys and this would would have been, of course, the obvious choice for the Russians to do so. Yeah, the the UFO thing. Look at the Stephen Greer and the UFO disclosure movement. What they’re what are they really trying to do? They’re trying to get access to U.S. military secrets, secret weapons, new technology, cutting edge physics, the claiming that these things are derived from crashed UFOs, which is what we’re hearing. And, of course, there’s a there’s a problem here. Stephen Greer, You talk about occultism. He has this protocol. He gets people to come to his camps or whatever they are, his his events and to learn to meditate, to communicate with the saucers. And the people sit around and they summon by meditating, they summon UFOs to appear in the sky. Right. What does this sound like, Contact with real aliens? Or does this sound like a cultism?
Benesch: Yeah, Yeah. And of course, I’ve as you said, you go into a bookstore and you find the you know, that’s a special section and you get esoteric books, a cold books, you get UFO books, and you get some maybe some conspiracy books. This is all sort of tied together. People are into usually all of these things, most oftentimes. And it’s the easiest way to have sort of a of an experience, right? The easiest way is to take psychedelic drugs. And this has become fairly popular even in right wing circles in Europe, In the United States, for example, you see a heavy influence in Western Europe of these Russian guys like Alexander Dugin. So they they tell people to connect to the connect to the past and have these experiences. And in the United States, the parts of the right wing in America, they are getting heavily into psychedelic drugs.
Nyquist: So you see all kinds of things that people are surprising. Is this happening in Germany too?
Benesch: Oh yeah. So it’s coordinated basically.
Nyquist: The psychedelic drugs. Like with the rock band “The Doors”, right? It’s the doors of perception. And so the idea is you use psychedelic drugs to open the doors to the other dimension. The other world to the world beyond. And then you can communicate with them, you know, what is it you’re communicating with? Spirits, angels, demons. What is it that they’re trying to do by taking psychedelics? They’re trying to access power.
Benesch: Yeah, and something that always pops up in UFO activist circles is this idea of into interdimensional beings. So that’s this is supposedly how these aliens cross through the universe. And they, they actually manage to travel these insane distances. They have sort of this this cheat code. They can they are so advanced they can just switch between dimensions. And of course, there’s this legitimate research upon multiple dimensions.
Nyquist: But basically the the aliens just they take the shortcut here through hell, something like that.
Benesch: And so some people who are practicing occultism and were also into this UFO alien stuff, it it it’s interlocked. It’s really intra logged. So if people get into this movement, psychedelic drugs inevitably will increase the plasticity of your brain, and that means you are more willing to accept new ideas or to reinforce ideas that you already had. So back in the old days, when when the CIA was experimenting with psychedelics, especially LSD, they were just they were also testing many other substances and they had different ideas what substances can do for intelligence purposes. And usually what these books on the matter talk about is, is they were hoping for a truth serum. And at some point LSD was a candidate for a possible truth serum. But of course, this didn’t pan out. What what what the researchers were able to find out was that you can increase somebodies plasticity of the brain and you can just just pour your your propaganda into this person. And this propaganda will have a more lasting effect. Now, when the CIA was basically done with LSD and they had no longer any any real interest in it, this is when, of course, the 19 the 1960 rock movement or hippie movement, they were getting into LSD. And this sort of created this impression in in mainline America that these sort of drugs would turn you into a leftist person. But as it turns out, you can use these kind of drugs to create any sort of ideological person. So nowadays it’s the green movement that’s getting into psychedelics quite a bit. Everybody is sort of trying this, and it’s when when the propaganda is dangerous, of course, then it becomes like a real problem. And it’s I see this all the time.People are interested in baseline standard conspiracy media. They’re also interested in UFOs, and aliens are interested in occultism and they’re also pro-Russian. So this this happens quite a lot.
Nyquist: That’s the thing that that that bothers me is how often when I listen to Steven Greer, you’ve got almost a peacenik. You know, we’re going to get free energy from the alien technology. And free energy is anti-capitalist, right? The capitalist we we’ve had the secret of free energy and the evil capitalists have kept you know, they have kept it all away from us. And and, you know, it’s very funny. If if somebody had a free energy device, they’re supposedly always going to be murdered. But the problem is, is well, well, where’s the proof of this device when has anybody really demonstrated it? And and, of course, is where you get into this conspiracy literature and and it’s like it’s tailor made for the communists and it has this Gnostic, you know, this system is bad. The man is against you. You know, God is the devil. Evil is good and good is evil. Again, this theme emerges on top. Mm.
Benesch: And something I noticed as well when it, when it comes to this, this UFO activist movement, it’s to me it’s sort of a parallel to was empires did in the in the ancient world. I mentioned this earlier when you tried to combine different nationalities, you try to combine these different peoples that you’ve conquered. You have to combine their religions, so you just make up connections that didn’t exist before. You sort of tell the story that it’s always been interconnected. It’s always been like this one thing. And so apply. If we apply this sort of concept to the alien UFO movement, it looks like it looks like somebody is trying to create a common thread and connect different types of religions, tie them together. And also it seems to be designed to get people back into the sort of religion game, people who have dropped out, people who have been disappointed in religion. And so by introducing this idea of these aliens who supposedly created us or co-created us and these aliens, we have to listen to them. They are our masters, our spiritual masters, and we have to serve. So this is how you can create a common thread and try to please everybody. So I’ve heard this interpretation is that the that Christianity, Islam, Judaism and all other religions, this this idea that they sort of derive from alien visitation and some of the the miracles and all these things are interpreted as alien technology and so on. And so we all have the same thing in common. And even if you’re bored by regular religion, I think many people who got into this UFO stuff and this ties into this illusion, this Däniken stuff about the old pyramids and that sort of thing that the aliens did this. It gets people back into this religious game. So you get these people back who have been who grew disinterested in religion and sort of you tie this all together. And by creating this sort of hybrid monstrosity of a cult who is in charge of this cold, it appears that, well, one, it’s these influencers, specific people who are who are the authoritarian voices of the movement. They are sort of in charge. But then, of course, what about governments that, for example, pretend and they have special alien contacts and knowledge. So let’s let’s let’s play this. So let’s let’s run the scenario in our heads. So what if the Russians stage things? What if the Russians have convinced people that that they have a special connection to the aliens? So it’s always a question. It’s always a question of who is running this cult, who can who can define what people are supposed to do because if I read some of these some of these UFO books, for example, it’s the one by Richard Richard Dolan.
Nyquist: He’s regardes as a UFO historian, basically.
Benesch: Yeah. He’s supposed to be very scientific. I was reading the second volume of his two volume series of Alien alien crashes, and there’s no interpretation yet from him in those books. People were apparently somewhat disappointed by these books because he doesn’t really give give us any idea who these aliens are, what they want. Are they a threat? Are they of any help? What’s what’s the endgame? What’s going on here? So this is sort the the area where it will be decided, who is running the movement or who is able to steer the movement in a certain direction. Because if people believe in it and there’s an authority saying we have proof, we have this special connection, are people are going to that authority.
Nyquist: You know, I read volume one of Dolan’s thing, so you read Volume two. But then I skipped ahead and I read his he wrote two speculative books. One was about breakaway civilizations and this technology, and the other was about aliens and what their agenda might be. And what do you learn from this is the guy has a very left wing line. He’s sort of a typical American left wing professor. And so he has these views, which we would call Gnostic. Basically. He doesn’t like the system, he doesn’t like capitalism, he doesn’t like the Pentagon, he doesn’t like the military industrial complex. So all of these evaluations enter into his way of writing his interpretation. So he then goes and he accepts that there are aliens and he accepts that there’s this big U.S. government cover up, which there may or may not be when the evidence is so ambiguous and when, as you say, this intelligence game is going on. And he does not by any means accept that there’s anything wrong with the Soviet Union or that we had a really dangerous situation that Russia and China are still dangerous today, that this is sort of part of an ongoing game. He doesn’t look at any of that. And it seems to me, you know, someone like a researcher like Jack Farley, who does look at that and who wrote UFOs in the Soviet Union at the end of the Cold War and saw there was some strange things going on. And the Russians were engaging in deception is not superior to Dolan because Dolan has an ax to grind. He is a lefty. And that’s because when you read someone, you want them to be objective. Yeah. And you want them to be aware of the pitfalls and the dangers because there is a you know, I’m I want my country to survive, of course, But I want to be objective. I want to be true about what is real and what is it.
Benesch: Oh, by the way, because you’ve you’ve talked about this this this idea that aliens, alien civilizations are much more advanced than we are, and these alien civilizations are supposedly. Yeah. Like a communist system. So, I mean, every time you look at somebodies idea of of these aliens or you watch a movie that’s based on all, let’s say, UFO literature or that that stuff, it’s always that these aliens are they’re they’re these aliens have sort of a communist system so it’s not about the individual. And they have surpassed they have surpassed any notion of capital ism and individualism. And and this is something you find over and over and over again. So, for example, when the famous director, James Cameron, when he was making the sequel to the 1979 movie Alien by Ridley Scott, when the sequel was done in 1986, people noticed a very strong undertone of communism in Cameron’s movie. And so Cameron even admitted to that. He was sort of getting this his idea from the Vietcong. Right? So apparently, in James Cameron’s mind, the communist Viet Cong were the liberators, the underdogs. And they didn’t think in individualistic terms, they were not capitalist, they were just focused on the goal and the common mission. And in the movie you see these colonial Marines, as they were called, and they represent in the movie, they represent everything that America is supposedly about. So the driving force is a corporation, the Weyland Yutani corporation, but the government is a partnering with them. They’re sending these colonial Marines to this planet that is supposed to be colonized by humans because there’s alien outbreak in the colony. So then these colonial Marines move in and they’re very gung ho and they think they can squash the enemy, squash those aliens. But this low tech alien enemy is pretty much defeating the American military force. And this was a clear parallel in James Cameron’s interpretation of the Vietnam War. So the low tech guys supposedly the freedom fighters, they beat the mechanized American capitalist superpower. And so, yeah, this was one movie depiction of let’s, say, communist guerilla aliens, so to say. And there’s many, many more examples. I mean, Cameron always tried to be a communist, but he spectacularly failed because he created so much business, so much business for the movie studios. And yeah, he’s he’s also he was pro-gun for a while. I mean, he was really fascinated by firearms and and those things. And there’s always some sense of his movies always have some of some real focus on families. Even his 1986 movie, Aliens. There’s also a very interesting undertone about family. So he tries so desperately to be a communist. And even these aliens are communist.
Nyquist: And this is sort of the same thing in the Terminator movie. The idea is from the 12th chapter of the Book of Revelation. People don’t realize that you have in the end, you have the trying to devour basically the Virgin Mary before she can give birth to Christ. So you have John Connor. J.C. is about to be given birth by his mother, Sarah Connor. Right. And so the the the monster, the robot, the Arnold Schwarzenegger Terminator character comes through a time machine back to kill the mother of its enemy. Well, this is straight out of the Bible. So Cameron has taken that. A lot of people didn’t realize what it was. And, of course, you have almost a recreation of the Holy Family in its own way, Cameron’s twisted kind of version of it. And of course, it makes it because he’s using these religious symbols, which may not be conscious in people’s minds, he’s actually reaching this larger audience and and of course, he’s talking about apocalypse, about a nuclear kind of apocalypse. Only robots, demonic satanic A.I. are taking over what is it called? Skynet. But what you what is disturbing about fiction is where the left wing themes were more subtle. You know, years ago. Now it’s just overtly in-your-face woke propaganda, you know, like the morning show about how all these feminist women heroes promoting abortion, you know, killing babies, as if that’s a heroic, you know, you know, smuggling abortion pills over the Mexican border is a news story that deserves to be covered. And it’s so heroic making people who are promoting abortion into heroes. It’s so strange to me that this is in, of course, one of the major characters who is supposedly from a Christian conservative, you know, West Virginia family. That’s, of course, very dysfunctional and full of alcohol and drug abuse. She becomes a lesbian, you know, this kind of sensational but very gnostic seems to show that everything’s dysfunctional and this world is bad and we have to revolt against it. We have to. And the truth is that everything, you know, is wrong and we have to turn everything upside down to make it right side up.
Benesch: The aliens will solve all our problems. They will solve all these questions, apparently. And I think even I George Lucas with his Star Wars movies, I think he even shared the same historic view with James Cameron. I think that on some level the rebels in Star Wars are also based on some communist movements, liberation movements and the the the evil empire. The evil empire in Star Wars is based on many things, for example, the National Socialists, but also people notice, of course, that these empire officers, they’re talking in a very posh British accent. So this is a clear jab at the old British Empire. And so on some level you can interpret it as well. The rebels in Star Wars, they’re like the they’re like the American rebels, you know, gaining liberty from from the from the British Empire. But in some interviews, George Lucas actually betrayed some very, very left leaning interpretations of history. And in there was another example. It was, yeah, I mean, the original Alien movie by Ridley Scott from 1979, it was more subtle, I admit. I admit that. But sprinkled throughout the movie in Alien are these these capitalist logos from the company, the corporation Weyland, Yutani. And so this, this, this corporation wants to get this alien specimen for bioweapons research to make money, and the crew is expendable. They sent the crew to this planet. They get infected with this alien specimen and the company wants the specimen returned to Earth. The spaceship in the movie is sort of a microcosm. So you have like the you have the captain who probably makes the most money, and he has to be the liaison between the higher ups in the company and the workers on the ship. Then you have sort of below the captain, you have the the communications people and the sort of the the other officers. And below that you have the mechanics. So in the movie logic, the mechanics, they’re paid the least amount of money. And you see this sort of weird class warfare going on in this stupid spaceship and then it becomes this bigger sort of this this bigger class warfare. And yeah, and the main character then blows up the entire ship. So destroying all this value the company and also destroying this, destroying this, this alien organism.
Nyquist: The science officer who was an agent was really a robot who you find out when she has a fight with him and and this white fluid comes out and he’s really he’s just a machine.
Benesch: Yeah. And he admires the aliens. He he admires the army. Admires them. Yeah. He says I admire its purity. He says something like that. Unclouded. Unclouded by delusions of morality. This is, this is almost like an occultist almost like an occult. His view. You know, you want to be a highly elevated type of creature that is not clouded by illusions of morality. That was that was one of the creations of the company. This this artificial human being, this this android. And later. Yeah, later Ridley Scott made this sequel movie, which he called Prometheus. And this is almost like taken out of the old books by Erich von Däniken again. So the story is these alien engineers, they created us or co-created us. And once humanity evolved and created spaceships, the humans, they wanted to go into space and find these engineers to gain access to these secrets and, you know, eternal life and all this stuff. So basically become like the gods or become at least as powerful as these alien aliens who created us.
Nyquist: Of course, the themes we find in Ufology are almost taken from bad science fiction. So much of it, if you if you look at Steven Greer, it’s almost impossible with the disclosure movement, the things he talks are almost they are. So, you know, I wrote a piece about this a few months back. It is so bad. And of course, he’s been accused of lying and distorting. He’s got a rather checkered past actually, himself in in making claims that are not true. And and so this is the this is the real tie off that you’re looking at this information when you’re looking at information that’s been cooked.
Benesch: What what many of these activists are saying is that they are really world class investigators. So they are the ones who expose the secret. They are spymasters, they have sources, they acquire bits of intelligence, they they recruit sources, or they they get contacted by sources. And so they’re they’re claiming nothing less than being world class, you know, spies, intelligence people. And when I look at when I look at the material, they put out, the stuff that was popular in the eighties that was then turned into a television show, The X-Files, you know, with the FBI Agents Mulder and Scully, And then the stuff in the nineties. And then Cooper’s book came out, Behold A Pale Horse, which was sort of heavily into this alien stuff. And, and of course now this book by or this two volume serious by Richard Dolan when I look at this material, I see that they do not possess the expertise of an intelligence person, a spy. So in my opinion, they’re making all these mistakes they are, especially Dolan. He’s absolutely convinced that he’s on the right track. And even if many, many things get exposed as fake or it gets exposed that the United States Air Force was infiltrating the movement and supplying false documents. And these documents were hailed as as real, even when these, let’s say, intelligence failures happen, they don’t really learn from it. These activists always go back to this standard procedure. They say, well, if this if this thing was fake, it it shows the government tries to spread disinformation. Therefore it must there must be something real behind it. Or they claim this exposed fake piece of evidence was based on real evidence, or it’s just a mix. It it contains some truth. And the person who leaked it, he had to put in false stuff. So it’s just it’s this generic response that is repeated over and over and over again, and after all these failures, never did they actually improve their methods. Never did they actually change the way they handle intelligence.
Nyquist: You know, like this Jack Foley is is an exception. See there the thing that is confusing as there is a reality, there is there has always been inexplicable phenomena. You know, whether it’s whether you’re talking about the history of Sikhism, you know, the different psychic research organizations I’ve experienced, for example, spontaneous telepathy, where I was driving in a car with somebody who was quite angry and I knew there wasn’t a left hand turn lane and I knew he was going to get backed up and and we were going to be late for lunch. And I kept thinking in my head, get in the left lane, get in the left lane now, you know. And he turned to me and he looked at me and he said, What did you tell me? He changed lanes. And then he said, Why did you tell to get in the left lane? And I hadn’t said it. I’d only thought it. So I’ve had you know, people have those experiences. My grandmother had the experience of dreaming her sister. Clara’s death in in Elgin, Illinois, the night that her sister Clara, died in childbirth. And she she she had the dream. She nightmare really woke up, told my grandfather, you know, Sister Claire is dead. He said, No, no, it’s just a dream. In the morning they got the telegram. Now they in British Columbia, they were in a different country. And she had the dream. So? So people in their families, they have these experiences. And as I said, the Kennedy Lincoln synchronicities. There is this dimension of reality, this real. And of course, what these intelligence services and these conspirators in in in strategy, using their groups to get advantage is they play off of the reality, which is a mystery that that we don’t understand through the centuries. Nobody’s really understood any of this. They play off of it claiming that they have the answers, that they know what the answers are, and that if you join us, you’ll know the answer to and that we’re the winning side, blah, blah, blah. And and of course, if it’s, as you pointed out, with revolutionary movements, with subversive movements, to undermine the status quo is to say the government is in a conspiracy to hide this brilliant truth from you. The truth about the truth about God, the truth about the devil you know. The devil is really a good guy. They might be telling you like Anton LaVey and these are you could say that these are all intellectual weapons in this form of warfare that has not been that well understood by historians or the people that study these very subjects.
Benesch: Sometimes UFO activists get mad in me and then say: Why do you always mix this together, You know, the alien stuff and the UFO stuff, and they claim they’re only interested in the UFO sightings or perceived sightings. And and so I usually suspect that these people are really into aliens, but they’re not necessarily open about it. They just want to get people into this by using these perceived sightings and these stories that are being told by various people. And so once they get people into this useful thing, they can then get them deeper into this, into what they believe about what they believe on aliens. Because at the end of the day, why would this supposedly useful phenomenon, why would it be relevant unless the unless it has something to do with aliens and the aliens would either have to be a threat to us, a significant threat, or they have they they can help us in a significant way because if they’re not an enemy to us, if they’re not a threat to us and they can’t really help us, what’s the point of them? You know, we can’t this would be really of no use to us. So I’m trying to look at this from from the standpoint of what do people think they can get out of this or do people see this as a threat? Now, I mentioned this before, who is running this movement or who is really running the the key ideas of the movement? Who are these aliens? Why are they visiting us? What’s their plan? And if they are a threat, then of course, the question is who can protect us from this threat? Maybe the Russians can protect us and nobody. And if well, we’ll make maybe this one day. One day is some some Russian or some influencers will actually claim that your best hope is Russia to save you from the aliens. And in the other scenario, if if the aliens are of great help to us, then this help might be conditional. So we have to give them something in order to get, let’s say, the fence in New or whatever. So what do we have to give them? Who is who is going to define who is going to tell us what the price is, what the prices for this help?
Nyquist: The disturbing narrative that I noticed in UFO literature is that more and more among the people who believe in aliens and believe that there’s this definite government secrecy about the U.S. is this claim that’s very alarming that the U.S. government has a treaty with aliens and that they’re collaborating not with just any aliens, they’re collaborating with the evil aliens, The ones that are going to do something bad to humanity, are going to enslave humanity. And of course, who would you know? You when you hear some piece of nonsense, you think, well, who benefits by this quibble is the big question always who’s benefiting by this piece of nonsense? It’s like, Well, yeah, Russia and China. Because if you get a bunch of American citizens really upset that their government is collaborating if they believe in UFOs and they believe their government is collaborating with evil aliens, then the real problem is the U.S. government. The U.S. government is a threat to mankind because the U.S. is collaborating with evil aliens who have some sinister idea in mind for the future of humanity. So therefore, these disturbed true believers could work with Soviet intelligence, could work with Chinese intelligence to save humanity from this evil American government, this coordinating with these evil, evil aliens, this this kind of narrative. It’s no joke. It’s really out there in the UFO literature.
Benesch: I noticed something in this was an old interview that was conducted by a reporter from the Rolling Stone magazine, and he was interviewing Anton LaVey from the Church of Satan, which I just realized had a founding member from a 1000 year old family. And so this, this interviewer was, was asking LaVey: Are you aware that you are creating problems, you’re creating chaos. If you tell everybody that they’re there, they can be like God, or they should act as if they had, as if they were much more than a human too. Are you aware that is this this will cause problems? And Levey admitted that, yes, he just he plays to people’s egos and this has negative consequences. But in his logic, we are already in a phase of decline, a phase of destruction. So the only reasonable or the only the only thing reasonable to do is to accelerate this destruction. You accelerate this decline so you can just get it over with. And by telling people to behave in a certain he thought he could bring in this new age so sort to say and and sort of this is kind of a baseline, a cultist logic. So you’re supposed to just have fun, be focused, be focused on on your own interests. And even if this damages other people, I mean, he talked about how much he hated people. He talked about this for hours. This reporter said and so if if we draw a parallel from from this, this or cult strategy. Right. Instead of building things, instead of fixing things, instead of repairing things and creating things, you’re supposed to destroy and you’re supposed to cause more problems. If we apply this to this, some of these alien narratives, I mean, some people may interpret that that alien agenda as this is going to be like this big war, maybe this this, this big fight against the aliens. And once this is done. There will be something new, a new world, or maybe the good aliens beat the bad aliens. And after the storm is over we can all live in this happy communist system and we get free energy and free everything.
Nyquist: Yeah, that’s that’s pretty much how they do it. And and of course, people are so susceptible to this because as I mentioned before, what you just said, Karl Marx had had this his whole formula is criticize reality. Criticize it, criticize it, criticize it, then destroy it because you’re criticism. And that’s how you you create by destroying. And it fits with a poem that Marx wrote when he was in in university. He wrote a poem in which you said that he could be the equal of God who created the world. He could be as equal if he could destroy the world and mankind.
Benesch: And this was in the movie. This was in the movie Prometheus by Ridley Scott. So the same engineers that created us, they want to destroy us with this black liquid that can destroy us. And so only if you can destroy something are you this thing’s master.
Benesch: And of course, Marx had a special thing that he said about Prometheus. Marx? Marx liked Prometheus. He favored Prometheus. Prometheus, of course, in Greek mythology. Gave man fire. And but Prometheus was more famous for saying, I hate the gods. Why do you give man fire? Because I hate the gods, Right? Despite gods. And so there’s something about, you know, sticking your finger in God’s eye, being opposed to God, being opposed to heaven. This is very definitely built into modern socialism and the revolution and if people want to know why it ends in murder and mayhem and destruction and nothing really positive comes out of it, I think that you have the reason right there.
Benesch: Yeah. I mean, Marx’s idea was that capitalism will only cause damage and war and misery and destruction. So if we look at if we look at the first Alien movie by Ridley Scott, this seems to me like it’s going in sort of the same direction. It becomes sort of the main plot point in the course of the movie Alien from from 1979. It becomes imperative to destroy this organism before it reaches Earth. And it’s the same thing in the sequel by James Cameron because aliens reaching Earth, that would be like the the last stage of capitalism because a capitalist corporation Weyland you Tony and its complicit government they would be responsible for bringing these deadly aliens to earth and that would destroy humanity. So that would fulfill the prophecy of Marx that capitalism will destroy everything in the end. And so this is kind of an interesting parallel.
Nyquist: Yeah, it is. It will we see the the dialectical formula of concrete reality, criticize it, destroy, and then you blame your victim. That’s the other part. They don’t talk about is that is that you’re basically going out to victimize the people that exist, the system that exists. You know, human beings are not perfect any. Political system we make is not perfect. But you read all of history and you see how amazing the modern civilization is, what his achievements are, the humane, the extreme humanity of it, as opposed to earlier ages where there was no concern for the individual, no concern for the plight of the poor, For example. We have more of that. You know, modern philanthropy, especially in America and Great Britain, has been tremendous. The sympathy, the empathy that that people have, that wealthy people have had in the West, in in especially in in the Anglosphere. Yet none of that is credited. The whole thing is rotten. It has to be dragged out for what? For what they have in China. I think friend of mine who lived in China a couple of years, she said when she went to China, they have in China they have one expression for people who are in distress, you hold out your hand and you go like this people, we we’re not going to help. We’re not going to help you. And in Russians, too, there is this misanthropy that you don’t find in the West and we see it and like I say again in the Ukraine war, we see it in China’s treatment of Tibet and the figures in in China’s readiness to threaten the most horrible consequences to any country that dares to do anything against them, even to acknowledge the existence of Taiwan. And of course, Russia has been threatening nuclear war ever since it claimed the right to invade the second largest country in Europe in an exit. It’s just monstrous. And yet our media, our culture insists that we are the monsters that anyone that approves of the military industrial complex, that defends us, that defends our is kept us alive against Russian nuclear rockets for all these years, that they’re somehow the prime evil on the planet that the CIA, the gang that could never shoot straight. Is there is behind every single conspiracy and every bad thing that happened from from from Roswell to the Kennedy assassination to, well, maybe the CIA was the snake in the Garden of Eden. They think the Titanic sank the Titanic. Sure, it was the iceberg. It actually the iceberg was the sea. I was inside the iceberg, right.
Benesch: Yeah, you you just mentioned this thought that, you know, that this that this thing that has propagated that humans are the monsters. If you watch if you watch James Cameron’s movie Aliens, there is sort of this underlying respect that is being shown, this underlying respect to these aliens. And so, for example, these colonial Marines and they represent the military industrial complex, right? So These colonial Marines, they go in, they think it’s an easy operation. They think it’s an easy task. At first, they’re very, very enthusiastic and they’re very full of themselves. But when the situation becomes really dire and dangerous, they the Marines sort of fall apart. So they become individuals. They kind of turn on each other. One of them just just gives in to fear. And yeah, and this is this one corporate guy who is trying to sell them all out and try to get the specimen home. So the humans are scheming against each other and there’s this one moment where the main character, Lieutenant Ripley, as she has this line where she compares these human, the humans to these aliens, and she says, Well, at least these aliens don’t screw each other over for a percentage. And this was sort of a really strong hint that in the movie, sort of these these aliens are almost like these aliens are almost like like the real hero heroes of the movie. Right. Because they are this this this rare species. And they’re are selfless, is selfless, almost communist communist ideals, selfless warriors. They will sacrifice themselves for for the for the collective. There’s this one scene that was not in the cinematic version, but was later put back in into the director’s cut. It’s this moment where the colonial Marines, they put up these automatic this this automated automatically targeting guns, these sentry guns, and they put them these these this hallway. And so they stare at these monitors where they can observe how much ammo is still left in these systems. And they expect an attack from these from these aliens. And so they hear the gunfire and the the the ammunition commander goes lower and lower and, lower. But these aliens, they keep coming and coming and coming and coming. So they are the ideal of the communist, the communist fighters who will sacrifice themselves for the collective, whereas the humans, they turn on each other and they are their individualistic and they just they’re not the same.
Nyquist: That’s interesting. Is that the alien that is the threat to human life is really the good guy. And of course, that reminds me, I had there was a communist I knew in graduate school. He was very high up in the academic system and he he basically decided he didn’t even like communism anymore. He thought humanity should be extinct. He just thought humanity should cease to exist. That became his his final statement that humanity was not worth saving. And you think about this, You know, I think about, of course, soaring regards the sin of despair, which which he which he wrote in in one of his books, The sin of Despair is really the opposite of faith. Despair And faith are opposites. So you have the book of Joe Bennu. It seems to me very important that in the Book of Joe, they say, Well, God has done all these horrible things to you just curse God and die. And Joe won’t do that. And that is to me, the ultimate statement is that that you have faith that God is going to make everything good in the end and that it’s all going to somehow be worth it, that we’re here for a reason. And even though we don’t understand what that reason is, our is to endure. And the Gnostic position, the position of despair is no, don’t endure, cruise God and die. Nothing is worth anything. It’s all for nothing. And that is the nihilism that really underlines, underlies national socialism, communism and of these you could say heresies and really quite frankly, brutal approaches. And it’s this brutality, as you just pointed out, is in our movies, it’s in our science fiction especially, but it’s in all of these really sophisticated dramatic presentations. In fact, there’s a there’s a series, I think they’re children’s books. And I saw the series on HBO, which is a completely Gnostic thing, and it’s got inter-dimensional travel between our reality and this other reality, this alternate reality, and I’m forgetting the name of it. But it was it’s it really has all these themes built into it. And and it’s very it’s very anti-Christian, particularly in its in its message and but this is the thing that they’re pushing on everyone now this is the theme.
Benesch: I’m over here in Europe I mean quite a quite a few rightwing right wing extremists are into this UFO stuff especially tied to tied to the Nazi era. I mean, there’s been so many myths that have been created, you know, the flying saucer program of the Nazis and these these cold these are called programs to to find secret hidden places. These are cold places. And I think it was in the these expeditions that were done and also this this idea that Hitler was Hitler was channeling spirits from a specific planet, and we could actually visit this planet or these beings can visit us. So this there’s a lot of mythology was created back in the day and also after World War Two.
Nyquist: And I noticed something I noticed a specific connection, too, to the United States as well. It’s in the gross testimony, actually. They’ve brought that in. And the gross testimony, the stuff that the first alleged UFO captured by the US government was from was handed over by Mussolini. And they had a very apparently it from a some kind of test in Munich, Germany.
Benesch: When the the Church of Satan in America became a thing, and it was tied into, of course, the 1960s rock music movement. People in the Church of Satan, they quickly had exhausted what the church could offer. And so they were looking at all these other places. And so you had offshoots and then they were creating even more offshoots. And this is sort of where the connection comes in to the the Nazi UFO stuff, how this was or how how even a occultist, a Nazi or even German, a German occultism, how this was brought to America in a larger way. So, for example, first you had Michael Aquino who found who founded his own group, the Temple of Set.
Nyquist: He was involved in psychological warfare operations.
Benesch: Exactly. And of course, by naming it the temple of Set, this was, of course, a clear link to ancient mystery cults. So it was not the baseline black robes, pentagram and candles and stuff. Tt was more connected to the actual past. And I’ve mentioned this baroness from Denmark, from this thousand old family, this, this Baroness who was a founding member of the Church of Satan. And she may have been sort of a connecting a connecting person between the real elite cults and something like the the Church of Satan.
Nyquist: I should point out that these that the infiltration of the Masonic movement by the Communists goes way back. In fact, it even goes back further than what we find mentioned in Julius Evola, the recent biography of Julius Evola, he was working for the SS, they were gathering information on the Masonic and occult lodges in Europe. They were stockpiling it in Vienna and of course the Soviet army captured it. But the Soviets recognized that these aristocratic groups and these cults were the key, their infiltration of Europe as far back as the 1920s, didn’t they?
Benesch: The French rightwing was rediscovering Evola in the seventies and then he was rediscovered again in the eighties, in the nineties. And people nowadays they’re rediscovering him again.
Nyquist: So Steve Bannon likes him.
Benesch: And many of these new right wing guys, they are into psychedelics. And there’s a study on this I found recently on how many people in the right are actively promoting the use of psychedelics. And so so this this Michael Aquino guy he became he became interested in Nazi occultism And so in in 1983 he performed a ritual at the subterranean section of the infamous Wewelsburg Castle in Germany. And this ritual resulted in his formation of the Order of the Trapezoid, a Setiab offshoot group whose members understood themselves as a chivalric order of knights. So he’s taking you around the world, it seems. Right? So it started with the Church of Satan. Which was this baseline Pentagram inverted cross stuff, then the temple of Set, it’s going back to the ancient world and then he brings us to the Nazi occultism and then he’s going back to the old centuries with the knights and, and these sort of orders I mentioned the Knights Templar and the big question of who was trying to find out what’s what, what the Templars were into or may have been into. And so then the story continues from 1987 through to until 1995, the Grand Master of the order of the trapezoid was Edward Thorsson, real name Stephen Flowers. So he had studied academic runeology at the University of Göttingen in Germany. Under Klaus Düwel. And so in 1978, Flowers joined the Asatru Assembly, the largest neo-völkische organization in the United States. So this is one of the connections where they bring this stuff from Europe to America and to the Americans. Germany or especially Europe in general, seems ominous and very, very mysterious. Right? Because this this this is reflected in all the horror movies. You know, anything, anything German, anything European is is viewed as very, very sinister. And some of these European some of this European stuff then made its way to the United States East coast. I think the the Salem stuff, for example, this was in New England or something. Salem Witch trials. So this was this was like this was like New New England type area?
Nyquist: In the late 17th century. Cotton Mather, who was a famous clergyman, his letters were very famous. There was a an old washerwoman in she was and she was insulted by a couple of girls in the community there in Boston. And this lady put this old Irish lady put a hex on her on. These two girls, they started vomiting nails and pins. They they would I forget whether they levitated or not, but they were they went through horrible. It was like a possession, demonic affliction kind of thing. And the community there, they’d never seen anything like it. They were Puritans, of course, and they wrote to Europe where of course there had been experience with witch trials and so on, and they didn’t want to execute this old woman for doing this, but they did. And they were beside themselves. And Mather was a preacher and he came back and he said, Oh, this is ridiculous. This can’t be happening. And then he interviewed the two girls that were afflicted. And so that it was really happening and went to visit the old Irish lady in jail. And he said, My dear, you’re you’re a Christian, right? Well, yeah, I’m a Catholic. And but you, you, you know that it’s witchcraft is against, you know, Christianity. You can’t do that to anyone. Well, they insulted me and I talked my prince and my prince is is, you know, I’m never going to give up my prince. And my prince has these powers. And I did this to these two girls and he tried to reason with her and get her to remove the curse. And he said, you know, they’re going to hang you. They’ve written to Europe and this is the procedure. Witchcraft is a capital offense. And she said, I don’t care. I won’t remove the curse. And they did end up hanging this woman and they had a terrible time. He took one of the girls into his home and found that only in his study was she normal and that he account at this is a bizarre account. And Mather was a very sober, intelligent man. This the this girl would be seen like writing an animal, invisible animal around the place and would break through doors and it would go through places in the house and make a huge mess. And there were, you know, lots of witnesses to this and eventually what Mather did is he formed a prayer circle and they just a giant prayer circle. And they prayed and and these girls got better. But this letters became famous in New England about this event and triggered a witch hysteria outside of Boston in Massachusetts, at Salem. Have you ever heard the story before? No, no, I’m not not familiar. And historians agree that what happened in Salem was a kind of hysteria. But it’s just like with UFOs, somebody sees something that’s maybe real. It’s been a phenomenon for thousands of years. It gets into people’s heads it gets exaggerated. It creates a hysteria, creates a movement. Well, this is what you had here happen in New England. I think this is that if you read Mather and you read the even there was a Jewish historian that wrote a biography of Mather and he said, Well, this does appear to have actually happened.
Benesch: You know, I think this is I think this is the this this whole underlying thing I think is very, very much reflected in American horror cinema, because now it’s Halloween, it’s Halloween season, right? So people rewatch all these all these classic horror movies. And it I mean, the the most successful or the most well-known American horror movies, they usually the story usually revolves around some sort of an object from either Europe or something from Europe or even further from the old Mesopotamia region. And somehow this object ends up in America, this this a cultic thing. And somebody is somehow accessing this. A cold object goes to cold power. And then of course, all hell breaks loose. This is basically the storyline of Sam Raimi’s The Evil Dead. This is the story of The Exorcist from 1973. I think it was. And this is sort of this is something you see over and over again. I mean, I recently rewatched some of these some of these films. And for example, the Dead from the 1980s. It’s the story of these these young Americans. And they they go to this cabin in the mountains and they find this tape recorder and they find this this this ancient book of the dead, and they find this ancient dagger. And so the recording on the machine is from a scientist, a researcher who found this stuff, found this stuff with the incantations from an old Sumerian. He found it in an old Sumerian temple. And he brings this stuff to America. And these. These, these young idiots, they play the whole recording, including the incantation. And that’s when the spirits, the evil spirits that are partially even, they’re already there, then activated and they all get possessed. They all get possessed by this really, really evil demon. And The Exorcist, the original movie it stars the movie starts basically in ancient Mesopotamia. It’s this excavation in Iraq. The first shot of the movie is the sun. Like the sun gods and. So in the end, in this excavation, they find this little figure of the ancient Pazuzu demon and Catholic priest. This Catholic priest sees the little figure. He also looks at the faces off against this bigger demon statue. And then he gets recalled to, well, the East Coast. Like, I think it’s Washington DC. The Washington DC area. And he’s supposed to go there to perform an exorcism because somehow this this demonic force made its way to America, to the United States.
Nyquist: Well, you’ve got H.P. Lovecraft in the Story of Cthulhu, right? And the story of this is and of course, this is tremendously imaginative, but and has had quite an effect. Part of the reality behind that is that in the 1820s or no, I’m sorry, 1840s, they were digging through as your bonny poles the the the one of the last Assyrian kings. They were digging through his library. They found it and they had all this cuneiform, all these books and one the books you can access this online, it’s the summoning of the seven wicked spirits and it is creepy. You just you start to read it and it’s it’s so evil. It gives you such a bad feeling. You have to stop. You can’t really you feel there’s something even in translation. This is originally an ancient Sumerian, not even in Babylonian or Assyrian, which are Semitic languages. And it seems that, as are Bonnie Paul captured this document Cuneiform tablets. When he took Babylon during his reign, he laid siege to Babylon and plundered it. And he wanted these occult books. And of course what what’s ironic is across the street from Ashurbanipal is library, where all of these occult books about raising evil spirits. They have the House of Exorcisms across the street, the ruins of the house of Exorcism. So this stuff is is goes back a long ways. And these old kings, Assyrian and Babylonian and whatnot, they’re fighting over these tech control of tablets, which is rather curious. And of course, you’ve got the beginnings of the story of Nebuchadnezzar. It’s very strange because you wonder if Nebuchadnezzar is possessed when he when he starts to act like an animal at one point. Right. He’s the guy that destroyed Jerusalem, laid siege to it. And that’s when the Ark of the Covenant disappeared. But and of course, this was the great Babylonian captivity where the Prophet Daniel was taken in captivity to Tenet, because Ezra and you had Meshach, Schneck and Abednego in the fiery furnace and so on, but never Kansas, one of these tyrant, these evil tyrant types. And and his family’s ultimately overthrown by the Persians. But and of course, he is the one who destroyed Assyria and laid waste probably to that same palace with those those books and cuneiform writing. But this is this goes back to a long way in history. And of course we don’t even fully understand what these practices were about, you know, how they related to Egypt and Israel and ancient Mesopotamia. They know that during the Babylonian captivity under Jewish houses, I think that they found in Babylon were these talismans buried under the houses I’ve read about. So there’s been all kinds of strange beliefs and magical practices throughout history and it it’s it’s some of it is a lot of it is nonsense, but some of it there’s some kind of reality there.
Benesch: I was very, very surprised when I read this book by Adriene Major called Greek Fire and Scorpion Bombs. She studied ancient biological warfare and she requested the help of other scientists, so ranging from archeologists to modern experts on biology and what they could piece together was that biological warfare was actually a thing in the ancient world. And it was not just the limited these is limited techniques that were previously known, for example, the poisoned arrows and poison arrow tips and redirecting streams or poisoning streams so the enemies drinking water is contaminated or but it was actually more advanced this. So there are instances of one empire placing deceased animals. I think it was anthrax, placing disease animals somewhere where the enemy would then pick up these animals because they believed that these were just stray animals. And so they were taking this disease back to their home. And there’s also a mentioning of disease to people, especially young women, being sent into the center of the enemy. And so it’s difficult to reconstruct a single operation. But the overall picture is really, really fascinating. So I it’s also tied to the mythology and to the mystery holds because some gods like Apollo, they were tied to this idea of diseases and some of the iconography depict some of these gods as as if there were as if they were fighting a disease or the the hydra, the many headed hydra. Or the black arrows. There was these invisible black arrows of death that were mentioned in the ancient world. So they they had a concept of biological warfare. And there’s some there’s there’s some informed speculation that they were using certain certain vessels made out of I think it was copper and silver. And so they could have stockpiles of infectious materials and these stockpiles would be in specific temples. So that is kind of the scientific theory there.
Nyquist: And it’s like there was some Roman so there were some Roman thinkers that speculated that there were germs that were too small be seen exactly. Responsible for illness. Yeah. So they have some kind of conception. Yeah. Yeah.
Benesch: And, and it’s kind of this, this idea that is reflected even in modern horror movies, modern horror cinema that you have sort of a vessel tied to a cult. And if you open this vessel, all hell will break loose. So just like in The Exorcist, when somebody becomes possessed or in the Evil Dead, when they when they they play this, this tape recording and then everybody gets possessed or even the zombie movies, you know, some of the some of the famous zombie movies, they never explained where why the zombies even even appeared I mean, it was I think it was insinuated in Night of the Living Dead that some American satellite was causing this. And there was another zombie movie where some American military gas was causing the dead to rise from the graves. So it was kind of this this old idea from the seventies and the eighties.
Nyquist: Karl Marx blamed people who who act like zombies and eat other people’s brains.
Benesch: Yeah. Or the the famous Dawn of the Dead movie where the characters, they escape to this shopping mall. This was, I think, a movie from 1979 Dawn of the Dead. So they escape to the shopping mall and they defend the shopping mall and they own it and they have everything and they don’t want to share it. But then some motorcycle gang arrives and they try to take the mall from them, you know, and you see the you see the the zombies and the like, the shoppers, you know, walking around and one of the characters asks, why do they come here? Why do these zombies come here? And the answer is, well, this this is the place they liked in their lives. So this stupid consumerism, supposedly this is what they were all about. And so this was this was in those movies. But it’s always like this. There’s this origin of of the problem. And then it spreads like a disease. Somebody has opened Pandora’s box and then everybody gets affected by it. So this is something you see over and over in these movies.
Nyquist: You know, the zombie apocalypse is always the capitalists and the consumers. Never, never the communists. And they’ll put Nazis. There’s Nazi zombie movies, too, but you’re not going to see one. Whereas the Communist bloc are the zombies. I think this is where where Eric Voegler is interesting when he’s saying that there’s this negativity which is characterized in this Marxist philosophy and Nazi philosophy where you have to go to violence, you have to go to destruction because everything is so bad. That’s the only way out. And this this destructiveness, it’s it’s not a fantasy. It is what is in these people’s heads. And it’s manifested in reality through like the Nazi and communist regimes and like the rising wokeism in the United States and the horrors we saw that Hamas did last weekend. It’s it’s and we don’t have any real a proper way of talking about it. All people can do is use this wokeism attack capitalism attack white privilege, attack heterosexuals and attack Christianity. That’s all they do.
Benesch: Yeah. Even today some people actually believe that National Socialism could have worked out in the end if if World War Two had had ended differently. But people never people like this, people in the extreme right wing, they never tried to run a credible scenario. How that how would this have evolved? Right. So it’s this it’s this there was this plan to rebuild Berlin and call the make a new capital city and call it Germania and have all these Roman style buildings that were larger than any other Roman star building in the world. I mean, Hitler was obsessed with this sort of these sort of structures, these sort of buildings. And he even made his chief architect, Albert Speer, the head of the the war production and the war procurement, which was a really odd choice. And it’s, of course, many people who wrote about Hitler and Hitler and occultism and quite a bit of what was written is is is false, is not really it’s not really true. But I’m looking into this myself. I mean, some academics have looked into this. I mean, there’s this one book by this British guy, like a Cambridge guy, an Oxford guy. I forgot his name, The occult roots of what was the National Socialism.
Nyquist: I’ve read the book.
Benesch: It’s one of the standard works. But he’s being a total academic. He’s not thinking like an intelligence guy at all. So he just is just going from, you know, baseline sources and he says it’s occultism was not a big thing with the Nazis. But the thing to remember about Hitler is that he was always, always trying his hardest to move up the ranks by any means necessary. So at some point he was getting into occultism. He was collecting this this magazine called Ostara, every single edition. He even went to the publisher in his early days when he was broke. He tried to buy the last issues that he didn’t already possess. And so he was really into this. But at some point and think this is even in Mein Kampf, at some point he started to talk down to the the the Germanic occultism, the time because he thought of these groups as too weak. So this is something you can find over and over with Hitler. He was getting into something new and when this new thing had exhausted its use, its usefulness. He found something that was more elite. It was more exclusive and then he was trash talking, the thing he was into before. So he was moving. He was moving up the ranks in society, and especially in Munich, Munich and other parts of Germany. You can find some really, really old stuff. Hard to document, but there are some because let’s face it, Munich is really, really close to or southern Germany is really, really close to where ancient Rome was or at some point the south of Germany was part of Rome. And this is sort of when the Romans met with the Germans and these two mythologies met. So the Germans had their own cults, their older cults, and this is where it all met. And this is the place Bavaria, where Hitler became a successful politician. So there’s quite a bit of scary ancient stuff going around, and that is far more was far more elite than what Hitler had been into in his early days. So he was trash talking like the there’s this baseline of cultists. He called them cowards. They would not fight the communists in a physical sense. They were just posers and all that. But all the time Hitler was moving up and up, up the ranks of society. And so he was up constantly upgrading his constantly upgrading his occultism along the way. And and his his fancy. He was always he was always a big fan of ancient Rome. That was his his his great passion to the Roman Empire. And that’s why if you’re at Nuremberg here in Bavaria, you can see these old buildings. There’s one of the buildings here. It looks like the the the Emperor Augustus Coliseum. And from Rome, it’s almost replica. And this is in Nuremberg. This is right next to the area where they had these big Nazi rallies. So this this was all based on based on Rome. So So the obvious thing to investigate is Hitler’s connection to old systems of occultism and be it mystery calls or be it some some later variation of those mystery cults. So this needs to be looked at. You can just go and read the baseline academic academic books or read the mythology that’s being spread around. You have to go deeper than that.
Nyquist: Well, there was his connection to Dietrich Eckhart, who was, in fact a translator, the German translator of the Norwegian playwright Ibsen. You know, it’s very funny. There’s a book called Hitler, and I think it’s called Hitler and Ibsen. I have it back here on the shelf. And it’s it’s I don’t know if if you’ve ever had a look at it. I think mentioned it to you last week. But this is a very strange book because this guy, he got funding, I think, through the Holocaust Museum to to turn this paper did into a book. What he discovered was that in Hitler’s speeches and writings were major plagiarism from Ibsen’s writings, Ibsen’s plays, And for example, Ibsen wrote what was it, the master Builder write a play about an architect or architect. The whole architect thing is big with Hitler, as you well know, is just Albert Speer. Hitler was aspiring to be an architect then was I think the play was called Ghosts. It was about syphilis. And of course, this story about Hitler having syphilis, there was the enemy of the People, which was about doctor who finds that the town’s water supply is is poisoned by some kind of bacterium. And of course, the Jews are described by Hitler as this poisonous germ in society that has to be combated. And so that there’s things taken from this play in Hitler’s speeches and and on it goes. And here is Eckhart and a cultist, a member of the Till Society who was the translator of Ibsen into German. And this is so strange I mean I read the book twice because it’s so boggles my mind. But there’s no doubt he’s onto something because you can’t literally add verbatim plagiarism on that scale without some kind of explanation. Right. Right. And so it’s almost like there was a template. And of course, as I mentioned before, cultists use metaphor and simile, and they use they use these structures that are similar from place to place. It’s like a template And it seems like and Eckhart once was quoted as making the statement, you know Hitler will dance, and we’ve called the tune. So he’s going to do basically what we’ve programed him to do. What does that mean? You know, is there was there some kind of secret Ibsen cowardice? Was Ibsen into the occult? What what is behind this? Have you ever heard of this before?
Benesch: No, not that. But I’ve been looking into I’ve been looking into the recent studies of studies about these these really, really old families. I mean, going back a thousand years, going back 1200 years, these old families, they they did join the and this Nsdap party, Hitler’s party, quite a quite a few of them. And they joined quite early as well. So this has been interpreted by researchers in different ways. So the standard interpretation is that the aristocracy in Germany, they they lost their status after World War one. And of course this is true. The the nobility, the nobility was was officially ended. So you still had the name, you still had the prestige, but you did not have the the official power that you had before on German territory. And so the standard interpretation says, well, these aristocrats, they, they they crave more power again. And they saw the national Socialist Party as a way to to attain greater power. And and this, I think is a very, very lame reading history because these families state they had tremendous wealth and they had tremendous power and they had way more territory because especially the oldest of these families of the very often, for example, wealth and families, they go back to at least the year 800 and they claim they go back even further, taking over from from the Roman Empire. And in 1714, Britain had a new king was someone from the 12th and Lion King, King George the first. And so this a very, very, very large family. And he tried to keep a low profile. And meanwhile, his his family members and their assets, they were flooding Britain. I mean they’ve been doing this for a while. This is how they got the remove the stewards from power, basically. So you have these very old families, And these sub lineages with names are more commonly known because these names also describe the places they controlled as Hessen or Schleswig-Holstein. But these old families, they had new territory. They, they had they they were in Britain, they were in Denmark. They you know, Britain had these colonies. These families also moved quite a few assets into the United States. This is also something I’m currently researching these old British sort of networks that were built in the United States after the revolution. And so what would be the point? Why would these old families support these crazy Nazis why would they support them to gain more power? They already had vast amount of power and territory. Why would they even mess with the Nazis? So this this this baseline reading of history is not really convincing to me. So as I’ve said, very old families, they probably were involved in some very old mystery colds. And this, of course, probably relates to to Hitler as well. Let’s say a guy like Eckert can connect Hitler to some other some other people. And Hitler wanted to move up the ranks. And there’s some there’s there’s quite a bit of historical evidence that some of these old families, these old families, they really helped Hitler’s rise to power. So, for example, the old fond Air Schulenburg clan, they sort of prevented the last ditch effort to keep Hitler away from power. So this was when this this was like in 1930, 32, 33, there was a chance of mobilizing the troops, just removing the Nazis from from the places of power they already had and then reestablishing some normal system. But this last ditch effort was subverted by, for example, the Schulenburg family. And so it is likely these these old families would have tried to recruit Hitler for some sort of more elite or cold system and and forging these forging ties. And some of these ties have never been properly looked at because, remember, the Nazis had this idea of making a deal with Britain in the United States.
Nyquist: So because of this, because these three empires, there were all white people, basically. So this was sort of they focused on using they wanted Hitler to move in the direction of the Soviet Union. And it was even in mind of a reference to, you know, reigniting the Russian civil war by by going into Ukraine, by detaching Ukraine and and refighting the, you know, the whites versus the reds. There was in Germany in the 1920s, still significant a number of of Russian Russian refugees who were willing to take up arms again and go back.
Benesch: When the Nazi party was gaining traction in the 1920s and then the early 1930s, the party was always broke. They They were bleeding money everywhere because they tried to impress people with these big rallies. And they had the the SA group going around beating up people, opposing the Nazis. So all this costs money and they were constantly running out of money and always magically new money was appearing from various from various sources. And so usually you would expect a quid pro quo from these these old families. So if if they are in negotiations with the Nazi Party, they would say, well, we can work together, but You have we have to bring you into this into this thing that we’ve we’ve cultivated for so long. So we can we can trust each other more. So this is likely the way the way things were played. And so and so it’s not surprising to me that British historians have refused to look at this and also German historians have refused to look at this.
Nyquist: So like historians refusing to look at Stalin’s role in bringing Hitler to power. And it seems like Hitler played all the sides to get where he wanted to go.
Benesch: When Hess made his weird trip to Britain in the in the small airplane, the point of this trip, as far as we can reconstruct it, the point of this trip was to to meet with his contact people in Britain from the aristocracy. There were quite a few connections with Haushofer and more. So this was supposed to be a meeting to make some sort of a thing happen, to make some sort of a deal happen. And yeah, there was this plan of the Nazis to to to bring this one guy to the to get this one guy to the British throne who was was sort of pro-Nazi. So the Nazis really believed they had deep rooted connection to the old aristocracy because in the Nazi mind, in the Nazi view of history, these old German aristocrats, these old German families, these these old German families, they had lost power, lost power to the Jewish conspiracy. So especially especially Britain, especially in Britain. So Britain was supposedly taken over by the Rothschilds.
Nyquist: If Hitler really believed that it really undid him in the end because he was wrong. And, but, but the interesting thing is, is that Hitler the Aristocrats got a snoot full of Hitler and felt that Hitler was bad in the end and Hitler wanted to eradicate them. I think it’s in table talk where Hitler talks about after the war. He’s going to eradicate the aristocrats. He’s going to hang them all.
Benesch: Yeah, he was he was sort of yet he was so full of himself he thought of in a way. He thought of these aristocrats as as losers because they had lost they had lost power, especially lost power to the Jewish conspiracy, for example, like in England, but also in in Germany. For the longest time, Germany was not a unified empire, was just these little bits and pieces. And and Hitler also Hitler also hated the old Austrian aristocracy because he thought it was so weak. It was no match for the old Roman Empire. It didn’t hold a candle to the Roman Empire. So these aristocrats were doing it wrong, and Hitler thought he was doing a much better job. But to did this was like his game. He was always trying to move up in, gain somebody help and then ditch them. But he was he was getting into some some families and he underestimated these I think in a in a in a big way. And and he was he thought he could use their help. But these families stay for a long time. They had infiltrated the right wing extreme movement starting a somewhere around 1850. So is this is around the time when the communists, the communists ditched the whole Jewish conspiracy thing, which was actually quite popular in the French early socialism. They invented this whole Jewish conspiracy thing. So the Communists ditched this idea. The right wing was picking it up. But I’ve systematically looked at all the major right wing organizations from 18 in 1850 to the Nazi, the Nazi power grab, and pretty much all of them had pretty much all of these groups had members from these very, very old and they were putting money into it. They were involved in occultism, going back quite a long time. And also they they could establish these these intelligence circles and some people from these old families. I think it was the the the Mecklenburg aristocracy in the north, these Mecklenburg families. I think the of Klan, I think they ran Martin Bormann, the big trader who because he was involved with them. BORMANN His early days, he was heavily involved with these families and, and, and the this was sort of the this is sort of the double agent, the triple agent, No, I think it was I think Bormann was originally cultivated by the Mecklenburg aristocracy, but some of these acquired him, some of these, some of these aristocrats, they came, they became involved with, with the whole communist thing and, and they got somehow they got themselves involved.
And it’s not really clear if, if somebody turned and started to work for the communists, this, this turncoat would have inherited an asset like Bormann. And for some reason Bormann was willing to give up the secrets to the Russians. And so this is, this is kind of the danger because many people came out of these right wing groups and joined the Nsdap but there were quite a bit of spooks in there, quite a bit of traitors in there. So if they could turn one of the leaders of one of these groups, they could turn all the agents to the Russian system. Even if these people primarily worked for Britain and Britain’s aristocracy because of the family relations, even if they worked for Britons, they could have still decided to give away the German military secrets to the Russians.
Nquist: Interesting. Well, we’ve gone two and a half hours now and we covered so many things. Oh my gosh, I can’t believe how much we’ve covered. Alex. Thank you so much. And I’m Jeff Nyquist, and I want to thank those who have probably, hopefully have listened to this a half hour at a time here and there. And you’ve you’ve covered a lot of it, but it’s it’s been sort of a super seminar on espionage, the occult and all the various aspects of.
Benesch: Well, it’s creepier than any horror movie out there for Halloween. I think the the secrets are still out there.
Nyquist: They are. Well, thank you, Alex. And thank you, folks, for listening
